Nature Speaks Project

INTERVIEW   WITH   TOMMY PRIESTER:

DATE:                          June 20, 2007

INTERVIEWER:         Linda Milks

PLACE:                   Via telephone / Tommy was in Lincoln, Mass.

                             I was in San Francisco, CA.

Thanks again to Desda Zuckerman who connected me with Tommy.  I just know him over the phone and through emails but hope to meet him and know him one day.

Desda and her husband Bobby speak of him with great love and respect and the reasons for this were fairly apparent to me even from such a long distance.

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LINDA:

Would you begin with a story that might best represent something from the trees point of view?

TOMMY:

One of my experiences with the trees, one of the ways to look at our way of blending in and seeing everything as being connected to One.   There is nothing that is separate from anything.  To me, that would be the main thing.

There is this really really old grandfather Maple tree that was 4 foot in diameter, this old tree, and we did a merging meditation with this tree. 

LINDA

And when and where was this?

TOMMY:

That was in 2001. It was in western NY State at a gathering called Self & Spirit. And basically the technique that we used was to go up to the tree and honor the tree and ask the tree permission to journey with it.  And our intention was to go into the tree.   There were about 20 of us and everybody had very similar experiences.  And it was really amazing that once you went into the tree you felt what the tree felt, and you saw what the tree saw.  You could feel the water coming up through the inside of the tree, and you could also feel that you were the water.  You could also feel the air being exchanged with the leaves but you also felt that you were the air.   And it was a very amazing experience of being At One.  I don’t know that I’ve ever felt as profoundly At One in any other experience. 

LINDA:

Were you still aware of being you, in your physical human body?

TOMMY:

No.  In a lot of journeys you are aware that you see your body or you see yourself but in this journey it was more a vision of becoming part of something; like becoming a molecule of something. So my body became the tree.

LINDA:

Was this a class that you were with?

TOMMY:

Yes, it’s a class called SELF AND SPIRIT. It’s a gathering that is done every year in western NY.

LINDA:

And everyone had that same experience?

TOMMY:

Yeah.

LINDA:
That is so profound….How did you teach people to have this experience?  What were the steps of the journey that you went on that allowed you to merge so completely with the tree?

TOMMY:

Well, part of it is intention. Part of it is getting yourself in an alpha state, bio-rhythm state.  And whenever you can get yourself into an alpha state, whether artificially, or through music or just through breathing then your brain conscious waves allow yourself to merge or journey or become connected to the universe in whatever avenue your intention is attempting.

LINDA:

That puts it in a context that makes so much sense, the mind is just in the alpha state.  And when in this alpha state all these other things become possible.

TOMMY:

That’s exactly it!  It’s as simple as that.  And its as real and true as anything at the same time.

LINDA:

Oh Yes.  Is there a message you could relay as a result of this experience?

TOMMY:
The message that I would say is that this particular tree was willing to give us an experience.  And you can get a message from an experience and the experience was that we are not separate.  And that we have to treat everything as being part of the sacred whole.

LINDA:

You use the term sacred.  I understand that and I also think of this in those terms.  Does the tree understand being sacred in the same way that we do?

TOMMY:

I don’t know that the tree would have that delineation.  The word, sacred, to me is that we have to bring our consciousness back to the beginning. And in the beginning there wasn’t a delineation between sacred and the non-sacred.   Everything was sacred.  We live in a modern era where nothing is sacred and that’s why I put it that way.

LINDA:

Ah – I see, thank you for that explanation….How long did this experience last?

TOMMY:

Hahaha – That’s a good question.  As long as you stay in a journey – this was a half hour experience. This was specifically set up that we all went at the same time, we all did our journey together – which is another thing that is often very helpful.  When you journey as a group, you have a group consciousness opening up all at the same time which helps to open the door more easily.  

I don’t know if the door opens wider, but I know that the door opens more easily.  

If all those people went home and tried the same thing without the group consciousness it would be a little more challenging.

LINDA:

Even for you?

TOMMY:

Oh yeah. Sure.

LINDA:

So were these people in the group skilled in getting into an alpha state?  Did they have experience through meditation and study or journeying on their own prior to coming to this group?

TOMMY:

Yes. Most of these people, say 60% - 70%, have been in that group and studying what I would call shamanic work, for at least 15 years.  And I wouldn’t put any of them in the category of necessarily being shamans but they have all been taking this course every single year called, SELF & SPIRIT. 

And the design of the course is to trick us out of our modern manifestations of what we think is real. And to attempt to get us back into being in an alpha state for over a six day period.  

So for six days there is no contact with the outside world.  It’s all ceremony, education - ceremony, education - ceremony, education.  And the education part is varied. 

Some parts of it are teaching about the outdoors:

·         how to walk without leaving as deep of a footprint on the earth;

·         how to walk only using your peripheral vision;

·         how to stalk an animal without being seen;

These are all ancient shamanic tools that are pretty much forgotten by the modern world.   But in able to do all these kind of things, and also for example walking on red hot coals from a fire, you have to be in an alpha state.  

There are some CD’s that the Foundation for Shamanic Studies puts out.  Michael Harners' group has some really great CD’s for doing journey work and the CD’s job is to put you in an alpha state.

LINDA:

So in addition to the work of Tom Brown, Jr., the journeys that your speaking about are based on the same culture or system that the Harner’s teach, right?

TOMMY:

Exactly. Michael Harner teaches Core Shamanism. And basically what he did is that he extracted a core practice from multiple shamanic practices all over the world.  He found the similarities with all these practices.  What he didn’t do was to follow a very important safety rule. 

To teach journey work, its very important to do journey work from a safe place.  And that safe place is a protected realm. 

And in Core Shamanism there’s not an attention? to this thing that I’m talking about; journeying from this protected realm.  And so a lot of people in the initial Core Shamanic work – they go in unprotected.

There’s a lot of stuff going on in the Shamanic Realm. There’s 9 levels of the lower world, 9 levels of the middle world, 9 levels of the upper world, there’s all kinds of stuff happening; all kinds of being’s in there.  And it’s very important to go in protected.

LINDA:

Can you speak more about that, how you do this in your tradition or practice?

TOMMY:

I teach journey classes. Once a month I teach people how to communicate with plants and trees.

LINDA:

Oh yes, please speak about that in relation to this.

TOMMY:

When I do my class, I as the facilitator go to my medicine space and I do my journey work from that place. And so in my minds eye, or my shamanic eye – my technique is to take all the people who are journeying with me down into that place.

LINDA:

Can you speak more about how you do this and where you learned to do this?

TOMMY:
I learned to do this through Self & Spirit and that is all about learning to work from this spiritual place, shamanic place. This stems from a very old Apache tradition of shamanism – this was Tom Brown’s elder teacher who was a Lipan Apache.

LINDA:

The one whom he called Grandfather; one of his books is entitled GRANDFATHER.

TOMMY:

Right.  So this teaching comes from him. And I have a little reluctance to say too much about that.

LINDA:

Oh yes, pardon me, I understand. 

TOMMY:

Oh no problem.  So I can’t really go into the exact techniques but what I can say is that the intention, remembering that whenever you do journey work it’s all about your intention. OK – The intention is to put people in a bubble of sorts so that when they’re journeying nothing else is allowed to come into that bubble.  No other entities.  So that when they’re done with their journey they come back into the bubble and their safe.  No attachments, no black energies are attached to any of that kind of thing.

When I have my classes, I do a power animal journey.  You’re familiar with that right?

LINDA:

Yes, I am.

TOMMY:

OK – so I do a power animal journey to get everybody hooked up with their helpers. And then after that we do a guided meditation to whatever medicinal plant that has sort of agreed to be the plant of the night for us.

I have 160 different herbs that I work with and I sort of dowse the herbs to see which herb wants us to journey, which herb wants to be worked on. And then we do a guided meditation to that plant and its just outstanding, just amazing. 

I walk people down a path.  We start out in a field laying down; smelling, touching, sensing; feeling their environment.  And with that technique I get people very engulfed in the guided meditation and then I walk them from there through the woods down a path and I take them to where the plant would be happiest in its natural environment. And they know that because they’ve been educated in where the plants like to grow.

I walk them up to the plant and their job from that point on is to greet the plant as if the plant were a spiritual being, a yogi or a prophet or a teacher or a god. And their job is to honor the plant, to greet it and to give the plant some type of offering; tobacco, sage, sweet grass, cornmeal, sugar, chocolate, hair – whatever resonates with that person. And after they make the offering they ask for the spirit-keeper or the spirit of that plant to come and teach them.  So the person asks for a teaching asks for maybe a song they might ask the plant to come into their body and teach them through sensation.  Everybody learns differently so the plant teaches each individual person in the format in which they learn best.  It’s very interesting that the plants automatically know.

LINDA:

Isn’t it though!

TOMMY:

And so after I take them through that introduction I leave them there and I give them several minutes to communicate and begin a relationship. Because the way I see it is that we’re beginning a relationship with a sacred being.  And so you just don’t go up to a sacred being and say, “hey, tell me about how this works and OK, thanks a lot, see you later.” 

It’s similar to creating a relationship with your power animal. 

So in the tradition that I come from, you have a true relationship with seven plants and it’s a shamanic relationship.  You can call on those seven plants, no matter what seven plants they are, to heal anything you need to have healed; because they work not only as chemicals but they are spiritual begins also.

LINDA:

So what you’re saying is that you choose 7 plants based on what you are drawn to and these 7 plants can cure basically anything no matter what the disease is?

TOMMY:
That’s right. That’s a very old native belief.

LINDA:

That’s’ interesting, I had not heard that before.

Can you speak on behalf of some plants or trees as to what they would like us to know that would be beneficial to our human / plant/ tree relationship?

TOMMY:

Well, what I know is that they desperately want us to wake up.  And they’re willing to help us but they need us to wake up. What I’ve come to understand is that plants and trees are much more highly evolved than humans.

LINDA:

Just all across the board, all plants and trees?

TOMMY:

Yes. And since they’re so evolved, they’re not selfish.  And they also know that there’s a symbiotic relationship and it’s that thing that I call sacredness. They want us to get back to the sacred. And they know that there’s a symbiotic relationship between them and us.

Have you ever read the book, “THE BOTANY OF DESIRE”?

LINDA:

Yes, I have – by Michael Pollan – it’s a great book and a great concept.!

TOMMY:

OK – so are we manipulating them or are they manipulating us or are we working together in a symbiotic relationship?

LINDA:

Isn’t that brilliant!

TOMMY:
I fully see through my experiences of journeying that the plants and trees are soo willing to help. It’s unbelievable how willing they are to help and teach us.

LINDA:

Well, let this be a channel for this to happen.

TOMMY:

Absolutely and that’s what this is all about. I’ve been doing this journey work, teaching people to talk to plants for seven years now. And every single person I have ever sat with, in every single class, 100% of the time, has brought back information specific to the plant that they journeyed to; every single person.

Now if the plants weren’t willing to help us or if they had a problem with this, they wouldn’t be teaching. People wouldn’t be getting this information.

LINDA:

That’s a very good point.

TOMMY:
So this work makes me extremely hopeful for humanity. And I’m not talking about materialistic humanity, but the sacred part.  Someday all the stuff we see is going to be gone. And all that’s going to be left are some villages around the world and some people and the rest is going to be plants and trees. And the environment will be come sacred again.

LINDA:

Will that happen in our lifetime?

TOMMY:

I have no idea. You know there are all kinds of predictions and stuff but it is painfully obvious that the direction and the momentum of modern society are in a self-destructive mode. When that might happen – who knows.  Will consciousness catch up to it and reverse it?  You know it’s possible but I don’t know if I would say it’s probable. Not unless some drastic things change in the overall consciousness of humanity. Then it’s quite possible that we get the 100^th monkey effect and everybody will spontaneously wake up.

And that’s sort of what your job and my job actually are. To bring inspiration to people to wake up. And why not use the beauty of these great green beings to bring that message.

LINDA:

Absolutely. I have a question.   

You talk about asking the plants permission to enter it or to communicate with it.  I assume that there are some plants who do not give permission?  And within the species consciousness there is an individual consciousness as well and perhaps some of the ones whom we see as being individual carry varying levels of that greater consciousness?  Or is the access the same for all?

TOMMY:

Well, so far, I’ve never met an unconscious plant.

LINDA:  ( we laugh)

But they have different personalities?

TOMMY:

Absolutely. And one of my teachers, Matthew Wood, tells a really great story.  He was working with dandelion and when he went to journey to dandelion and ask dandelion permission to harvest it and use it as medicine, dandelion was very cantankerous and upset. And said NO! You humans spray me over and over and you keep trying to kill me off, I’m not going anywhere but you can’t use me.

LINDA: ( we laugh)

So this was the species speaking and not one individual or group of dandelion?

TOMMY:

That’s the thing about plants, it’s a species consciousness. I haven’t met any plants that are independent of their species.

LINDA:

But is there a difference in the way that each individual plant or tree manifests that consciousness?  One in this area would be distinctive from the same plant in another area?

TOMMY:
Maybe, but that hasn’t been my experience. My experience has been, and maybe that’s an assumption on my part, that the consciousness of this plant is the consciousness of all.   And I’ll tell you why I think that.  Because in the journey process whenever we journey to a plant we go into the environment in which that plant grows.  And we always go to the largest, strongest, what I call the Grandfather plant. And we go to that plant to make our offering. So we’re actually approaching it on a species consciousness perspective.

LINDA:

Now is there a relationship between how you approach the Grandfather plant in journey and how it might look just to the naked eye?  So just in ordinary reality one could tell that a particular tree is the strongest, oldest, etc?

TOMMY:

In my native teachings, I’m not supposed to harvest anything from that larger plant. The Grandfather plant is sacred – look at it from this perspective: It’s like the genetic code keeper.  And so from the perspective of honoring the plant and the environment you would never harvest that plant, you would only harvest it’s descendants.

LINDA:
And would that be visible in it’s physical qualities in ordinary reality?

TOMMY:

Yes, definitely.

LINDA:

So there’s a correlation between the spiritual strength and the physical appearance?

TOMMY:
Yep.

LINDA:

What are some other journeys that stand out to you?

TOMMY:

Let’s see.  I’ve had lots and lots of journeys and the ones that stand out are the journey I did to blood root.  I was journeying to the plant to ask permission if I could make a flower essence. And whenever I do that I ask the plant if it can teach me what the essence would be used for before I go ahead and do any medicine work with it. So in journeying to the energy of the plant it said that it’s flower essence would be good for people who have psychosomatic illnesses. And the psychosomatic illnesses could be chronic fatigue or just any manifestation of a psychosomatic illness. And that it treated diseases of the brain and it would help people change their perception on how they see things. Whether it’s how they see themselves or how they see the world and it would shift their perception into a more balanced and ultimately respectful place.  And that was my journey to blood root.

There is a thing called plant signature medicine or the doctrine of signatures – have you ever heard of that?

LINDA:

No, I don’t think I have.

TOMMY:

The doctrine of signatures was developed way way back and it’s a perspective of looking at a plant and trying to find out what that plant can tell us by its appearance. The appearance of the roots or of how it grew, or of its colors, colors it may have in it as highlights.  And something about the plant will tell the human system what it  can help humans with.

That’s partly why I say that plants are more highly evolved than we are.

So in blood roots case, if you place an overlay of a CAT Scan of the brain onto the leaf of blood root it represents a CAT Scan of the brain.

LINDA:
Wow - Who has done this?

TOMMY:

ME! So there is one aspect of how that plant could say, “look at me, I am good for this”!  So it manifested that. And then the other thing it said was, “I’m good for serious disease – diseases of the blood.  Hence the name blood root.

If you pick up the root, its got this bright red root and if you squeeze that red root it squeezes out a liquid that looks very similar to blood.

So this plant is an anti-cancer plant.

LINDA:
Where is it found?

TOMMY:
All over the northern area of the country say from NJ to northern Canada.

LINDA:

And does the plant also tell you how to prepare it, what parts to use, etc... does it guide you in the process?

TOMMY:

The plants very often do tell you that. And that’s one of the reasons why it’s so important to create a relationship. As you create a relationship and as you go back and interact the plant will have more and more teachings.

LINDA:

Is it also your experience that animals and plants work together in this symbiotic way?  And also what about the relationship with plants and trees among themselves?

TOMMY:
It’s very interesting that animals, left to their own devices, know exactly what to eat to heal themselves. So they have this symbiotic relationship without us doing anything for them.

LINDA:
They haven’t lost that connection.

TOMMY:

Right. There is an automatic spiritual connection that animals have but a lot of them are loosing it because of modern humanity and domestication. But it’s there.

Like my dog knows that I’m coming to the house usually when I’m a mile away. He can’t hear my vehicle yet but he knows I’m coming.  Animals have a connection to the part of that brain that we have lost, as a whole.  Not everyone has lost it of course.

But if you talk to some of the Australian natives in the outback of Australia, they are still very connected to that part of their brain. They sleep in the sitting position without anything different than what they wore during the day. And the temperatures drop down into the 40’s. And they sleep in the sitting position and they reduce their heart rate and they get all the rest they need and they wake up and the exposure to the elements has no effect on their systems.

Now that’s also changing because they’re being polluted by modern times. But it’s interesting that they have that connection to the spiritual still.

LINDA:

Yes, that’s very interesting.

TOMMY:

The plants are our teachers. The greatest teaching of Christ was that God is within you and around you and all things at all times. So if we look at this from that perspective – and I don’t see that as a religious perspective I see that as a spiritual perspective.   If we view it from that perspective when we open to – what I call shamanic or spiritual connection – plants, animals, trees, rocks, storms, they are all our teachers.

They are waiting for us.  That’s why very often when people are doing the journey class they’ll come out of their journey and say, “ well you know the plant at first wouldn’t talk to me”. And I ask, well why do you think that is?  And very often the comments are something to the effect of, “well, it had been waiting a really long time and it was a little frustrated that it took me so long”.

So you know, they’re really waiting for us.

I have experiences all the time where I’m walking and I’m literally called to a plant.

LINDA:
Yes, can you speak more about the experiences you’ve had with that situation?

TOMMY:
Yes, there are hundreds. 

LINDA:

OK – I have time!

TOMMY:
It’s like a constant thing.  You know I’ll be walking down a path and be pulled to one direction and lo and behold there’s the strongest of whatever plant is calling to me that I’ve ever seen.  And so I get to honor this plant and thank it for its presence and they just so deeply appreciate that.

LINDA:
Can you explain how it feels to receive a “call” like this?  How does this happen for you?

TOMMY:

I would say it’s physical and emotional and spiritual all at the same time.  It’s sort of like if someone were standing off in the woods and said, “hey Tom”!

(we laugh) 

I don’t really hear the “hey Tom” but I get the energy of it. Or the energy I get a lot is, “I’m over here”!  They aren’t words but it’s the energy that feels like that.  And then I look and whatever plant or tree it is going, “hey, hey, hey, look at me”!  You know, that sort of thing!

LINDA:

Do you feel the emotions of this and are you open all the time to this kind of experience?

TOMMY:

I wouldn’t say that I’m open to it all the time. I get that more directly when I’m doing journey work for the plant.  Typically walking down a path or through the woods or whatever it doesn’t happen.  It’s more specific to the journey work.

LINDA:
Oh, right, because it’s the alpha state that you need to enter into before this happens.

TOMMY:

Exactly.  I don’t walk around in an alpha state everyday or I wouldn’t be able to get anywhere.!

LINDA: (we laugh)

I was just going to say that would be very difficult!

Do you find that you can journey and communicate with the plants indoors as well as outdoors?

TOMMY:

Well the interesting thing is that all my classes, except my weekend workshops, are journeying while in my office without the plant at hand. Now that’s really profound because the plants not there in any way.  I’m just taking people in their minds eye giving just a simple description of the plant were going to go work with. I take them in their minds eye and meet that plant and give them instructions to start their relationship and leave them there.

And then they come back with these unbelievable stories about these plants that are so right on that it’s mind boggling.

LINDA:

Different people would have different relationships with different plants. So how would you explain why one person resonates with one plant more than another?

Or is it the plant that actually chooses?  I mean, is it like a courtship here?

TOMMY: (we laugh)

That’s definitely in a grey area. I think that we all resonate.

I have a giant tree picture in the middle of my office wall of a soloman feal which is a medicinal herb. That is one of the plants that I deeply resonate with.  So that plant knows that I deeply resonate with it and it grows for me.

I probably have close to 200 plants.  It grows for me and is very ecstatic, very happy, it’s multiplying on a regular basis so that plant and I really resonate. And when I do journey work with that plant, it has a lot to share with me because I have an on-going relationship with it.

LINDA:

This context makes a lot of sense.

TOMMY:

Like in my classes, I’d say that maybe 30%-50% of the people who walk through my door are not herbalists. They’ve never worked with plants or herbs and they get the same type of information that people who have journeyed with those plants before get. 

The plants aren’t necessarily selected for somebody that resonates with the plant.

If the person is open, they’ll get the teaching. If the person is open and honoring. And my firm belief is that it’s not simply plants or trees. We can communicate with everything this way. We can communicate with our dogs and our animals. We can communicate with the rocks, the water, the air, with fire and the clouds and the storms.  We have the ability to connect with everything in our environment with this intention and with this process.

And I just happen to do a concentration of communicating with plants and trees.

LINDA:

It would be great if there were text books based on the reality and experiences in this alpha state and that it was something we studied in school from grade one.

TOMMY:

A lot of cultures talk about it but because our culture only receives it from the point of view of mysticism we discount everything that has that word.

LINDA:

Mysticism or myth.

TOMMY:

If we could put in front of that, spirituality, or if we could put in front of that shamanism, which people are starting to understand as a practice of going into an alpha state and communicating with the spiritual world. If we could put it in that context, it’s unbelievable what is written.

Every religion has it written.

LINDA:

I see what you mean.  It would just be translating it through that lens.

TOMMY:

Exactly. I took this class from a woman who is a fantastic investigative journalist type person and she did an in depth study of all the religions. And then she taught this year long course.  One of the things I took away was that every religion started with one or more people having a powerful shamanic experience.

And they then came back to the people enlightened by the shamanic experience, not unlike you sitting with the tree and getting this message. And they create a religion.

Now I don’t think it was those individuals intent to ever create a religion.  But that it was the peoples need to have a religion and that’s why it got created. And it was usually after the death of the person who had the shamanic experiences.

LINDA:
Ah- I’m mentally flipping through history on this.

Who is this woman that taught the class?

TOMMY:

Irene Wiegel in Lincoln, Mass. She’s just a lovely person. She worked for the Universal Unitarian Church and they asked her if she would do this class for the church. She taught adults for three years and also she taught a version of the class for 9 – 12 year olds.  She did some very intense research but doesn’t have any books or tapes out on this unfortunately.

It was her son, Jonathan that interviewed me about my arm and the accident.

(When Tommy was 32 years old he lost an arm when a lawn mower ran over it.  He mentioned that a student had interviewed him for 3 hours about the accident and how he coped with this…)

LINDA:

DO you have time to share one last story about the trees and what they might want us to know that would benefit them?

TOMMY:
An understanding that I get from the trees is that the older trees do not want to be cut down.   The older trees consider themselves grandparents or elders.  And what they do is create an environment underneath themselves for the younger trees to thrive and be able to grow quickly. So when you cut down the older trees you’re actually damaging the ability of the younger trees to grow, they don’t have a teacher and a guide any longer. And this is for all trees. 

So that’s an understanding that I have from the tree world.  It’s similar to the way our society has stopped honoring our elders.  And you can see the effect of the younger society not being exposed to their elders in a healthy way.

The same thing is happening to the tree environment but on a worse level, the elders are just being cut down with no attention.  So the young trees are being left to their own devices so they don’t know what the elders know. They don’t have a teacher any longer, they don’t have a mentor or a guide.

The young trees grow hither and yon, they can’t grow straight anymore they don’t have the guidance.

LINDA:

I need to ask you then how this fits in with the global consciousness of the species and the way a younger tree holds the consciousness verses an older tree.

TOMMY:

The unfortunate thing is that most of the oldest trees on the planet have already been cut down.

LINDA:
So then that older more mature consciousness is withdrawn from the species consciousness?

TOMMY:

I would say to some degree, yes. But, when you do journey work in the lower world and you’re going to go to a tree, you’ll find the 5,000 year old or 10,000 year old tree in the lower world.  You’ll get the teaching from that tree from that elder, they’re still available.

If you have more questions, I’d be happy to connect with you another time.

LINDA:

That’s wonderful!

I know you need to go but I just want to thank you for your time, I so thoroughly enjoyed this. This information is very helpful and I will certainly be in touch with you again.

TOMMY:

OK great.  Well I definitely want to encourage you to get out there or get in there and learn.  And if you ever get the chance to come and do any classes, especially that one in October, it’s going to be an amazing class and it will be focusing specifically on trees.

LINDA:

Yes, I’ll continue to do so. That would be a great class for me if I could do that.  I hope I get a chance to meet you in the near future.

TOMMY:

Yeah, it would be great fun.